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Tough one today

yoda Posted: 11 February 2010, 12:09 AM [NZ Time]   Upon reflection, the map was accurate but it certainly didnt seem it when out there, particularly the "trackhead" clue near the brewery. Was very suprised that I was able to get back in 46:27, half way in thought I was going to be up to 8 minutes late and with a low score to boot. Overall, I am very happy with my result (33-1) this week, and since I am improving I am very regretful its almost over, yet hopeful that the next series will be as easy to attend and as worthwhile as the last 7 or 8 SSS has been for me. Thank you to everyone involved in making these events a reality.   squeaky Posted: 11 February 2010, 11:41 AM [NZ Time]   Reflecting back on yesterday there a few things i would comment on. the clue for 3G was too ambiguous, probably should have been "pillar under bridge, N side, how far to Teralba railway station". 1E could have been a different location, most people found it hard as the sign was in the lumber yard. also lumber yard should have been taken off as one of the clues. 2F where the last word on the clue was wrong (should have been access not entry) was the result of that clue being changed multiple times. when i did my checking i only checked the answer "unauthorised" not the question which was a mistake. 2B could have been better, some people didn't know what a telecom pillar was. One thing we tried to do was to make everyone have to actually get close to the clue to eliminate the element of luck i.e. being able to see the clue from a mile away from some directions. this backfired a little though as it made the clues harder to identify, and was a bit different to the usual house number clues that most people are used to. Apologies to people who lost time at some of the controls due to our errors with clues. Any other feedback would be appreciated   A High Wander Posted: 11 February 2010, 12:49 PM [NZ Time]   A very enjoyable event. Several of the controls were much harder than typical street clues. Some of the detail was lost in the coloured control circle and could only be seen on close examination after the event. Traffic was a real hazard, this area is much busier than most other areas that we use. Although the area is very attractive, I am not sure it is really a suitable location.   o_grub Posted: 11 February 2010, 1:40 PM [NZ Time]   Like this area with it's variety of terrain. Also found some clues a touch vague and some local knowledge helped here & there(I live on the wetern edge of the map). Personally I believe the main "issue" was the same as identified by last weeks setter. Too many spread out controls covering the whole map (as were wks 2,6 & 15). This is highlighted in the stats for Points Accessibiity & Competitors Late stats in Peter's "Characteristics Reflecting Course Design". This makes more of a rogaine type course where you make a initial (critical) choice of which general part of the map you visit rather than covering most of the course but leaving a few out. Dunno, maybe people like it that way. Re A High Wanders comment that the area is not suitable. I think it's a great map with topography & detail that requires soome real orienteering. Start location & careful control site selection can mitigate a lot of the busy road crossing. There seemed to be far less issues last year starting at Nesca Park (near 3C).   steveo Posted: 11 February 2010, 3:09 PM [NZ Time]   im all for having to decide what portion of the map to go for. if people get back late because they bite off more than they should have then that is their fault not the setters. i see this as the number 1 challenge of street events would be happy to see the current trend of squeezing events into small areas to stop. if this trend is to 'save' areas from becoming familiar then maybe 17 events a season is too many (i think it is anyway)   o_grub Posted: 11 February 2010, 4:15 PM [NZ Time]   Glad we don't have A3 maps.   Almost Good Posted: 11 February 2010, 4:31 PM [NZ Time]   Setting this was a fun and interesting experience. I think Alex enjoyed it too. Personally, I want to thank Josh Blatchford for his work at the finish desk. It was pretty hectic, and his effort was much appreciated. In hindsight we needed an independent vetter to verify that all of the clues were obvious and unambiguous. It seemed to us that they were going to be good before the event, but as it turns out a few did cause problems on the day. Experience will help - it was our first attempt! Like Steve, I prefer a larger map and lots of choice. I like a course which makes you have to make decisions - not only micro decisions about route choice between controls, but also having to decide on a bigger strategy as well, and being forced to revise it as you go. I don't think this is as simple as "which bit of the map will I do". We aimed to set a course that would test the runners, while leaving plenty of points accessible for all levels. We also hoped to provide multiple options for whatever level as well. We tried to choose control sites that would require exercising some orienteering skills, and actually looking at the map detail (such as the one inside the lumber yard). Controls were placed at locations that encouraged the use of safe crossing points for the Railway/Hunter St/ King St busy corridor. Regarding the lumber yard - it was probably a bit too hard a control for an event of this type. It was unfortunate that we hadn't noticed that the words "lumber yard" were present in large letters on a structure located inside (but not at the centre dot) of the control circle. Although words cut into large steel fence bore no relationship to the clue of first words on twin stone signs, we accepted lumber yard as an answer anyway. Those that slowed down to read the map detail and find the proper answer were possibly disadvantaged by this... This message was edited by Almost Good on 11 February 2010, 7:12 PM   footprints Posted: 11 February 2010, 4:52 PM [NZ Time]   Thanks Squeaky and AlmostGood, I enjoyed myself yesterday, even though I managed to get back late, again. There are some areas we run on that have only had subtle changes since the first StreetO, like Stockton, and others like Newcastle city that are constantly changing, even one year to the next. Even the weather was nothing like SteveO's event last season. As long as the map location and clue/answer are unambiguous and correct, there shouldn't be any problem about a control that needs navigation in the circle - it's what we do all the time in the bush or a sprint map. The best way to check is to give the map and clues to someone who hasn't been to a group of control sites before, and get them to run into the controls at something like event pace. It can be surprising how a setter can become "blind" to the alternatives that may be present.   cariar Posted: 11 February 2010, 5:10 PM [NZ Time]   Great event squeaky and Almost Good. Very happy with clues for the sites I visited, though the "twin stone signs" was an interesting description and depending on direction attacked the sun made the face look metallic. Not to worry. Set by two of our faster runners it was gratifying that there was a good quantity of points for us lesser mortals. Fully endorse the comment that you did have to visit the site - thank you from someone who missed out in the height and long sightedness genes. And as orienteering is the thinking person's sport the clues weren't a bland/generic group of questions. Thanks for that too. For the out-of-towners it may also delivered a little additional knowledge about Newcastle. Bonus even for some locals. If people have to think a little to navigate and to navigate within the circle that's good - if you just want to run that's fine too...did you see the seemingly endless procession of poor sluggers running around the pond and the path if you took off towards 2A? Not much thinking going on there - just hard work. Give me a mental and physical challenge for preference. Thanks squeaky and Almost Good for the effort you put in - very enjoyable.   o_grub Posted: 11 February 2010, 6:04 PM [NZ Time]   Totally agree regarding using the detail and providing route choice between controls. Maps that allow this are the ones we should be using. The main issue with having far more controls than can be visited, spread over a large area is the element of luck it introduces. Despite great improvements, our street maps are still fairly basic with 10m contours and generalised mapping and as we know, even with the best efforts from setters there can still be issues with clues. Consider the following scenario. The start is roughly in the centre part of the map. Each half looks roughly equal and require around 8km to get all controls and by what can ascertained in the 2 minute viewing time. Like a lot of competitors, Fred & Wilma both usually cover something like 7km in 45mins. Fred goes east. Wilma goes west. Unfortunately for Fred (but not unusual in St-O) the eastern half of the course has 4 "dodgy" clues, a new unmapped high fence and several missing contours which costs Fred valuable points. Wilma returns with glowing praise for the mapping, the setters clear clues and 6 more points than a disappointed Fred. They only visited 2 controls in common. Meanwhile, competition leaders Barney & Betty both cover 10.5km visiting 22 controls in common, 3 of which were dodgy . They had a whinge but agree they were both affected equally. Is this fair? If the whole course instead required 11 km to "get them all" all four would have visited more common controls, running around generally the same parts of the map and hence reducing the element of chance. Long distances between controls also favours fast runners over quick & efficient navigators as they have more time to think and run at full speed. Setters are also spending more time than they have to if they are setting controls that very few, or no, competitors visit. Maybe this time can be better spent vetting & rechecking a smaller number of clues. Sometimes it seems to be more of a case of covering the whole mapped area with controls regardless of its size rather than a conscious decision on the length of the course. The 'Measure' option in OCad make it easy to get a fair idea of what you consider the optimum route. But whatever you do don’t make the course too short so someone "gets them all" and gets early bonus points or you'll really start me ranting.   Mess Engineer Posted: 11 February 2010, 9:55 PM [NZ Time]   Thanks squeaky and Almost Good for the day. All the controls were exactly where they were shown on the map. My challenge was paying enough attention to read this detail. Being a first time setter for Event 6 (mentioned above) I had my Clues vetted independently by Bob Gilbert, and laid out and measured distances of alternative routes, and people still weren't happy on the day. I learnt 50 different people read things 50 different ways. Also there are a lot of different opinions on how the maps should be laid out ... I think the challenge of having different styles each week is part of the attraction. Sometimes they are 'paint by numbers' events where you either go left or right and sometimes you spend the whole 2 minutes and still don't fully decide or change your mind midway. Maybe leepback can get together all this years first time setters and talk about the issues raised and what is contained in the proforma 'instruction sheet'. I would encourage more first timers to take this on to share the workload and diversity of styles. This message was edited by Mess Engineer on 11 February 2010, 9:57 PM   Almost Good Posted: 11 February 2010, 11:49 PM [NZ Time]   Mess Engineer - I didn't mean to come across as either defensive or critical! Feedback is much appreciated, both positive and negative. I guess as being eager to please we take on the negative stuff a bit too personally sometimes... We got lots of feedback at the event, almost of it appreciative and positive, and of course we also need to know what people think we ought to have done differently. I like the orienteering crowd for this - they are almost overwhelmingly a supportive positive lot. I like the variety of maps and course styles in Street-O as well, and some weeks I master it, and on others it beats me - and yes, sometimes its because a crafty setter duped me into going a control too far or similar - I like this too. If it didn't challenge me week after week I would quickly get bored of it!   trudger Posted: 19 February 2010, 1:35 AM [NZ Time]   I will never forgive myself for the brain explosion I had on the last 3 point control 3G? (not sure where I have thrown the map!) Having climbed the cliff in Kind Edward Park and having visited the map pinnacle at the obelisk, I had a massive downhill run to the footbridge crossing. Reaching the northern end of the bridge and a set of stairs my oxygen starved brain somehow decided that track start meant follow the steps upwards and that a distance would be read from the directional map usually located at an observation point. Part way up I was thinking this is a lot of effort for 3 points, perhaps I should have gone down instead of up! After about 30 flights of stairs I was convinced that going down 3 flights of stairs to check for the clue first, or even skipping it altogether, would have been a more efficient use of time (and effort). 28 points would have been a good score for me, losing 7 points really hurt. I now know that it takes me 5 minutes to ascend/descend the giant phallus (an appropriate symbolisation of what i thought of this control site & description). I think there should be a new rule: that multiple level control sites should not be allowed. Those running along the foreshore would have merely encountered the control. Those using a recommended crossing had to make a *cough* 'decision'. In hindsight I should have used the crossing then resumed position at ground level on the map, then started looking for control. Now I do have to find the map... so I can burn it. Glad I cooled off for a week before making this post. But it is true, no matter how much effort goes into setting good clues, some tired runners will still manage to somehow over complicate the control. Thanks Alex for the bollard question. I think the last time this type of clue appeared it was at a David Kitchener event years ago and referred to posts with knobs on the top. A rope tieup structure seemed a more apt use of the word. Those that didn't know what a bollard was could still find the answer by carefully navigating to the circle, so in that respect it was a good/unique control.

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