SSS6 - Cardiff South
 Mess Engineer | Posted: 25 November 2009, 11:18 PM [NZ Time] 
Might as well start this one off since leepback said he was going out tonight.
All the route choices and information that was on display (including Clue Photos) has been PDFed and sent to leepback for inclusion on the NOC website if desired. Too tired tonight to write my thoughts of the day ... will return tomorrow and review the added commentary.
This message was edited by Mess Engineer on 25 November 2009, 11:23 PM |
| footprints | Posted: 26 November 2009, 12:56 AM [NZ Time]
Thanks for the event today Mess - enjoyed it, and appreciate the effort you put into it as well.You don't have to dream about running the course any more, like I'm sure you did last night
The map is up on Routegadget in the usual spot. |
| Mess Engineer | Posted: 26 November 2009, 1:12 AM [NZ Time]
CONTROL PLACEMENT AND CLUE SHEET
Can't sleep so will type instead. I didn't get any complaints about Clue Sheet Font or readability, or accuracy of placement of the central dots for the Controls so thats a positive. I put more detail than normal in clues (ie White Text on Red Sign, Sign to Right Side, Red Text on Yellow Sign) and Bob Gilbert implied I should cut all this detail out but I recieved some positive feedback about doing this.
From memory in marking every Control appeared to have been visited by at least 1 person. Will see more in RouteGadget as courses entered.
Clue 1P was not liked by majority and I ended up giving the points to anyone who marked any of the three options. This wasn't one of the ones I rewrote several times and never reconsidered, and Bob Gilbert was happy enough when vetting, so must be the difference in my Engineering brain. Next time choose a power pole (although some of these were answered wrong in the event as well). Clue 1J was raised as well as to see the solar panel had to be about 4 houses further down the street and people struggled to count the divisions. Clue 2F people said the handrails also 'slightly narrowed' on the SE end which I would have to revisit to understand. Didn't get any complaints about my R Rated Clue for 1R which I was concerned about prior to the event.
I found the 'directionality' differences of sighting Controls very interesting when setting. 2G was obvious from the S but harder from E or W. 1C was very obvious from S (and was told too obvious) but difficult from the N. 2J could be seen too early from the W but had to be closer from the N and S. 2E (from W) and 1M (from E) and 2H (from S) could be seen for 50 m away easily. Footprints *lucked out* ("planned well with his years of experience") with nearly all of these as his route took him via the most visible option in nearly all cases.
Taking the photos and laying them out in Word Document only added about 1 hour and gave me more confidence that I had everything placed correctly. I would do this again next time.
This message was edited by Mess Engineer on 26 November 2009, 7:32 AM |
| Mess Engineer | Posted: 26 November 2009, 1:21 AM [NZ Time]
POST RACE ROUTE ANALYSIS
I wanted to do something different for the Finishers to understand their choices better prior to RouteGadget and so I could learn for future course setting. This was why I worked out the four route options and put them up for display (in a supposed restricted access zone although several people entered prior to running!). I did this in geodistance as at that stage I didn't know you could easily measure distance in OCAD.
When I ran these routes it was the first week after I returned from China (about 3 months ago) and I had glandular fever so I wasn't overly worried about running over the 45 minutes as I was struggling. I expected someone at my level (about 70%) could get 25-28 points via a range of options about 7 to 8 km. Mick Kavur, Shane Jenkins and Sam Howe who are normally pretty close to me all scored around this so I wasn't too far out. Expected the fast guys to get 36 to 40 points which also seemed the score range today. |
| Mess Engineer | Posted: 26 November 2009, 1:29 AM [NZ Time]
ROUTE CHOICE
I wanted to make it so there wasn't just an anticlockwise option, or clockwise option with little difference between runner choices. Therefore I went for having almost infinite choice and I saw people starting go off for at least 4 different first controls. Some people thought this was OK but many preferred the more traditional option with a Route choice that "stood out" more. Some of the example Routes I did you could get the same points, for less km by ignoring the right half of the map altogether. I will await the variety of RouteGadget courses and comment later.
This message was edited by Mess Engineer on 26 November 2009, 1:30 AM |
| footprints | Posted: 26 November 2009, 2:37 AM [NZ Time]
"lucked out with nearly all of these as his route took him via the most visible option in nearly all cases"
I'm running so slowly that every 50m I can save is important. If I get the chance I will choose the route that gives me the best chance of seeing the control early eg 1D from the west, but running on the south side of the road so I can see the front of the houses, and then back to the west to run along the west side of 2E.
2J and 2H didn't matter because I was going to run past them anyway, but seeing the clue early meant I didn't have to slow down too much (haha).
6.49 km for 24 points is the distance I ran, probably saved 200m by choice of approach into controls, which was the difference between jogging into the finish or a last frantic sprint. |
| Mess Engineer | Posted: 26 November 2009, 7:30 AM [NZ Time]
No offence intended with the "lucked out" comment footprints. Change "lucked out" to "planned well with his years of experience". 
I just found the wide range of comments from one extreme to the other, for the same control, totally bizarre. Trying to picture how 100 different people, from totally different backgrounds, interpret a short text explanation proved an experience.
Best example was 1C stuck out like the proverbial from the South but several people who came from the North weren't happy with it at all. |
| cariar | Posted: 26 November 2009, 3:14 PM [NZ Time]
Mess Engineer challenged us with sooo many route choices. I decided to avoid the dreaded drain network that I lost a fair bit of bark from my shin a couple of years ago when trying to scramble out near the finish. Went south and basically picked off 1H,1M(it may be easy to read if you are long-sighted, but it was faded and a close visit was necessary),3D,2E,1D,3A - thinks 'do I trust going N and fighting with drains? to pick up 1A, 2A then 2B'. No, so decided to cut to 2B, looked down street at 1C but couldn't tell from map whether 1C was across other side of drain so continued on to 2C,1J and a final tiring "sprint" UPHILL to Finish, but with a pleasing whole 1 second to spare. You see I am terrified of the nasty points man who has given me a final warning for being late. There is so much of the season left and I will bomb out soon enough!
There was good control placement and you had to think about how to maximise personal resources. Pleased with result - a tad higher than usual.
Congratulations to Mess Eng on his first Street event. Great effort and so much attention to detail. You couldn't say you weren't warned about potential hazardous routes or alterations. Even though he had a vetter, there was little left unattended to. The luxury of pics to assist in discussion about exactly what was being asked for is good if you have the resources and inclination to do so. Junior and I did it at our last Pelican event and only had to use it in "discussions" about plant pots on patios.
Mess Eng would have enjoyed the analysis of routes - a pity he couldn't spare more time on the day to chase that up. Lots of people coming in thick and fast. And a reminder to those setting later in the season - Mess Eng was very generous with some of your answers!
Leepback - I'm confused... I thought "lucked out" meant your luck ran out and "got lucky" meant the opposite. The 50m you might be saving - can I have it, please?
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| mapgirl | Posted: 26 November 2009, 3:29 PM [NZ Time]
Wasted my 2 min map time by being distracted and then went out with only half an idea which changed in the first 100m.I got most of the West section and was happy that I got 3 x 3 pointers.1E,2B,3A,1D2E,3D,1M,2J,1P,3F, 1S and home 25 secs late.+19pts
I feel I avoided most of the climb with this route. Not great points, but I am still nursing a sore ankle from an injury in September which doesn;t seem to be getting and better.
Nice public start area and good running weather.
Well done David on your first event. |
| leepback | Posted: 26 November 2009, 5:17 PM [NZ Time]
Cariar - you are confused they were talking about your man, Rockman.
I always hate the term "lucked out" as I always it assumes you are out of luck but I think it means that you actually got lucky. Very silly (yank) expression in my view.
Another I hate because to me it doesn't make sense is to "draw a line in the sand".
As far as my conclusions as to what people mean when they say it is that they are making a mark that wont be crossed but to me marking anything in sand is fairly temporary so in my humble opinion it's a pretty feeble statement. Maybe better if you said you were drawing "a line in the concrete".
This message was edited by leepback on 26 November 2009, 5:18 PM
This message was edited by leepback on 26 November 2009, 5:19 PM |
| cariar | Posted: 26 November 2009, 10:11 PM [NZ Time]
Leepback - my speed reading has let me down. I see now that is was footprints - will have to speak to him re his vernacular.
RE a line in the sand - I have some recollection that term relates to wartime and battle lines etc not being traversed.
This message was edited by cariar on 27 November 2009, 2:13 PM |
| Mess Engineer | Posted: 27 November 2009, 2:20 PM [NZ Time]
ROUTE CHOICE - UPDATE
After looking at the very different 7 RouteGadget alternatives entered to date (excluding my 2 examples)(and including 3 of the Top 5 Competitors who did around 10 km each) and a separate discussion in Attackpoint I am happier with the days outcome and that I achieved the first Aim I wrote on my original list.
It was never the intent that anyone would (or could) get all of them. As I said upfront on the start board you would need 13 km to get them all and with the hills of Cardiff that was going to be a big ask (a 13 km route getting 29 of the 32 controls (48 of 53 points) was on display at Finish).
Every competitor made significantly different choices at each control, as they were deliberately laid out such that generally had three or more options at every control.
My analogy is some courses are like Communist Russia with the clear choice of one or two brands of black and white television. Cardiff South was like going into Harvey Norman and having to choose between Plasma, LCD, OELD, HD, Full HD each with a feast of sizes and options (which is why I haven't faced up to buying a new television as yet as I don't know what to get and am happy to continue with my 9 year old set). Choice is good, but too much is sometimes overwhelming.
I still intend to volunteer again in future (with some applied learnings) as I appreciate how much effort is required to organise and I would like to contribute in return for the other 16 runs of the season. Depending what Area I get next year the Map may lead me to a different approach but I still like the idea of having the Start central to the Map.
One learning was for the Answer Sheet next time I will make sure no sequential Rows use the same Answer Column as it was too hard sometimes to see whether a big mark was for the row above, the row below, or both. |
| leepback | Posted: 27 November 2009, 3:12 PM [NZ Time]
"...One learning was for the Answer Sheet next time I will make sure no sequential Rows use the same Answer Column as it was too hard sometimes to see whether a big mark was for the row above, the row below, or both....."
This is one thing I recommend and stick to but you have to have at least one or two in there somewhere or smart competitors will work out that on the previous and next line there are only two options as it would not be the one directly in line.
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| cariar | Posted: 27 November 2009, 8:13 PM [NZ Time]
OK Mess Eng I'll give it to you with both barrels - the only fault I could find with the answer sheet would have related to 1D and 1F (nearish on the sheet) and middle entry of "summer/s" and consecutive 1H and 1J with numerals (and especially both 4s in the central positions, though neither had 4 as the answer). I have had criticisms that in the heat of the moment ie oxygen debt or careless, the clues need to have no overlap. BUT if you want the points you answer the question! I think a setter can go so far, but it is easy to criticise, especially when hot and tired. You did very well!! |
| Mess Engineer | Posted: 27 November 2009, 11:13 PM [NZ Time]
Cariar that just highlighted to me the limitations of being a detail freak. Can't see the forest if keep focussing on the individual tree.
I spent so much time looking at the wording of each Answers for each Clue but never really zoomed out to look at the sheet as a whole (apart from formatting which I spent a lot of time on such as separating the house numbers into a column of their own and making them bold to improve readability). Only didn't use the Club Standard as I set this up 1.5 months before I was sent all the proformas etc.
But now that you pointed it out it really sticks out to me but when you first wrote it I thought "what does this mean" before going and getting the Clue Sheet to look. So another minor learning for me.
Peoples brains are wired very differently .... my other half often tells me to have a womans look as I can't see stuff that she spots straight away (and vice versa). I don't bother looking for tools anymore I just ask her to come to the garage and point out where I left something a few minutes ago.
She came with me on one of my early clue checking runs and had great delight in highlighting to me that I had spelt two answers wrong.
As I said above I intend to volunteer again and face the variety of 100s of different (and sometimes conflicting) opinions in another year. |
| Mess Engineer | Posted: 27 November 2009, 11:26 PM [NZ Time]
I am also working on two potential Onesteel recruits to Orienteering.
One of them (about my age) was independently in RouteGadget this morning having a look at Cardiff South (as he grew up there) and I gave him the Map and Answer Sheet so he could have a solo look with his wife if interested further.
Another (about 22 and lean and lanky and will probably flog me rapidly if he starts seriously competing) was telling me he runs twice a week and didn't know what Orienteering was so I spent 40 minutes giving him a spiel and showing him the website. He took a copy of Cardiff South map and will run it on Saturday and will most probably attend Pelican next week. |
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